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General Coochie
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.02.09 08:32:00 -
[1]
Most 50mill+ are, mine isn't, its just 1 mill though and my alt got 5k.
The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie) |
General Coochie
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.02.09 11:50:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: General Coochie
Most 50mill+ are, mine isn't, its just 1 mill though and my alt got 5k.
No, not really. I've had my bounty up over 250m multiple times, and I've never put a bounty on myself. ATM mine is around 67m, not self placed.
Just because you had one over 50m doesn't mean that most over 50m aren't fake.
The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie) |
General Coochie
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.02.10 10:13:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Cpt Fina
Originally by: General Coochie
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Originally by: General Coochie
Most 50mill+ are, mine isn't, its just 1 mill though and my alt got 5k.
No, not really. I've had my bounty up over 250m multiple times, and I've never put a bounty on myself. ATM mine is around 67m, not self placed.
Just because you had one over 50m doesn't mean that most over 50m aren't fake.
Just because you say that most 50mil + bounties are fake doesn't mean it actually is so.
For instance if I hereby claim, out of the blue, that most 50 mil bounties aren't fake then I've provided just as much fact to back it up as you have at this point in the thread.
Well after noticing that most bounties over 50mill in low sec are as follows:
13370000
666666
777777
12345678
and so on. I concluded that most are fake. And these are the ones that are just so obviously fake it hurts.
Then of course we have the players thats been pod killed only to the next day have the same bounty again, which Ive seen on numerous occasions as well.
The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie) |
General Coochie
The Bastards
|
Posted - 2008.02.10 12:43:00 -
[4]
No more proof then you.
I guess you never heard of 1337 then? 1337 = Leet = Elite.
And I never said I can see/prove if a bounty is fake solely on the amount. But if you really think that 133700 bounties are a coincidence, fine. Personally with use of common sense I would assume its fake.
Off course we can totally disregard common sense.
but
Do we really wanna start a metaphysics discussion on EvEo forums? About what kind of proof and observations thats needed to assume/prove something.
You are welcome to disagree with me, but I think you are wrong.
The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie) |
General Coochie
The Bastards
|
Posted - 2008.02.10 17:42:00 -
[5]
As I said I rather don't go so much into detail over this as to bring metaphysical theories into the picture.
common sense is subjective, yes it is. So can you prove to me that you woke up this morning? No you can't. The only thing I know for sure right now is that I'm sitting here right now typing this. Every other science based fact is acquired from common sense and the belief that time is linear and that events that are repeated often will repeat themselves again.
I think everyone understands that no one can be 100% right or wrong on this matter (or any matter that isn't bound to fundamental laws as true and false and 1+1). I really can't be arsed to be so semantic over my statements that I wanna take time to express myself to make my point clear, safe and 100% scientific and political correct on a online space forum.
I'm just curious; do you believe the vast majority of low sec haulers to be ppl/macros farming isk to sell or actually playing this game just to enjoy it?
I wanna know if you as other ppl here are arguing cause you don't like the shortcuts some of us do assuming things, or if you are just arguing for the sake of it, or if faked bounties is just a soft spot for you for any reason. So I know for possible future diskussions.
And finally, even if I made it sound like I was 1000% sure I was right. I don't think I am. I might be wrong. Of course its my opinion. I don't think ppl reading this thread ever thought otherwise. If you feel you need to make it clear to others readin that I might or is wrong simply because I cannot prove my statement I think you are underestimating most ppl's "common sense".
The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie) |
General Coochie
The Bastards
|
Posted - 2008.02.10 19:36:00 -
[6]
I'm not accusing anyone in particular so I really don't think I need to be fair or moral in my assumptions and statements.
Yes I think common sense is enough when we are talking about the situation in a fictional world. Its not like the scientific community will disregard my whole publication for not bringing proper and well documented facts for my theories.
And you haven't trampled my arguements so far. If most ppl with a higher bounty in fact have fake bounty and a high enough % of them got "funny" looking bountys which are directly related to the fact that they are fake, you haven't disapproved anything. Theres nothing saying that the burden of proof is on me in this scenario except you. Because what is to be proved isn't some law, or fundamental theory like why does things drop to the ground. This subject is more of the type is the pen blue or is the pen not blue, and no one actually has seen the color. However most pens of the brand tend to be blue in my opinion and not in yours. I think both of us has the burden of proof on us.
It might be irrelevant for the discussion for you to reveal your motives. But its of importance to me. Sometimes I like having a good discussion but other days I can't be arsed with it. If you start picking my posts apart in the future I wanna know whether it is of importance to bring clarity to the subject or whether its just to have a discussion. If I wanna have a discussion then I might go ahead. But if not and its a subject I really don't care much about (like this one) I could just leave it alone knowing you actually don't care about the subject either.
Also the only way to settle this I think is to.
* Sit down in a system for couple of weeks and count number of ppl with "funny" bounties, which is indeed hard as its subjective. I should do it, as its my ability to see fake bounties that is questioned.
* Do an anonymous survey where ppl with bounties higher then 50mill gets to answer if their bounties are fake or not.
* Compare amount of fake bounties from survey to my "observed" ones.
I rather run a marathon tbh.
If we can however settle for our personal undocumented observations on the matter and just conclude that.
You believe most bounties above 50m are real (if you actually think this)
I don't believe most bounties above 50m are real.
And since you take my words so precise, I guess I once again have to say. Its MY opinion and I really think anyone reading my first posts wouldn't think otherwise. I'm assuming (again) now and guessing that most ppl don't take my words as if I actually knew exactly how the situation in eve is.
The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie) |
General Coochie
The Bastards
|
Posted - 2008.02.10 22:24:00 -
[7]
Edited by: General Coochie on 10/02/2008 22:33:57
Yes you are right, my common sense isn't worth more then yours, nor isn't it the "right one". We all have different ways of looking at things. If I think something is the way it is for a certain reason concluded from my common sense and you don't we are disagreeing. You are welcome to disagree with me.
Quote:
Which arguments have you provided that still hold tight?
My personal observations of ppl that got new bounties in few hours and rate of "funny" bounties, but you don't believe my word of my observations or have different observations. The only way of settling whether I was actually sound in my accusation is by doing a scientific study on the matter that is well documented.
You are welcome to, I won't do that myself, if you wanna go so far to prove that my initial statement was far from the truth you are welcome to. And if you do I will admit to being wrong.
Theres not a single science in history that hasn't got discussions for and against whatever theory in focus. Its actually what makes science sound and productive. Not that I would call our subject here very sound or productive science even.
Quote:
Please point out any argument that youĈd like me to back up.
Quote:
I'd have to say that most of the 50+ mil bountys aren't as the three lower examples that you've shown.
Also one could assume that the funny bounties aren't all faked bounties, as some bounties that are faked probably look like any other bounty. Of course some funny looking bounties are bound to be real as well.
My personal observations and common sense is enough for me to conclude that most bounties in EvE above 50mill are fake. It might not be enough proof for you but it is for me. I consider myself to be open minded, if science tomorrow concluded that the gravitation law of physics doesn't apply once every 100 years for 2 seconds and theres some proof for it and the science community would embrace that theory so would I even if its fundamental to most ppl.
Same thing here, someone could prove me wrong and I would rethink my statement and investigate how my conclusions could have gotten wrong hence the IF.
And no I won't do a survey, nor will I change my initial statement. Nor do I have an obligation to prove that my method is "tight". I'm free to be judgmental. And I can be judgmental about what ever I like.
I personally draw a line somewhere between slinging dirt on/accusing ppl with high fake bounties and doing it against a corp saying they make fun of deceased ppl. If you don't draw such a line sure go ahead make such a post. It will ruin your eve-o identity not our corps. Why? There is a distinct moral difference but also for some reason ppl are more inclined to believe that x amount of bounties are fake and wouldn't believe a post about our corp doing mentioned stuff.
The only ones that should feel bad about it are the ones having a fake bounty. Everyone else knows I'm wrong in their case.
This is a statement on a forum for an online role playing game. Not a science article.
I understand what you are saying, but it doesn't matter how well you argue for your sake, I won't treat the eve forums the way you think they should be treated.
Now go watch my newly releazed Caracal and Vigil PvP video. Linky is in my sig.
The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie) |
General Coochie
The Bastards
|
Posted - 2008.02.11 10:32:00 -
[8]
Edited by: General Coochie on 11/02/2008 10:34:58
If you disregard common sense and ppls personal observations as facts, you can disregard most science we have today as it all builds on common sense and the assumption that time is linear and that things that happened many times before will happen again. Science in general is founded on the assumption that things that happen often, will happen again.
In the same way as you expect a pen to drop to the floor when you let it go from your hand above the floor, I can expect ppl to get new bounties shortly after being podded, having a high rate of funny looking bounties. The difference is the number of observations made. I might not have done enough observations to be scientifically correct to state what I stated. Note however that the only thing that makes my statement/argument possibly invalid is that I haven't done enough observations. So how many observations should I make? This is up to the scientific community to decide. Since our scientific community at the time consists of two ppl its kinda hard making progress.
If all assumptions and statements needed to have a scientific validity and not be based on common sense and personal observations we wouldn't say much at all. Did you know that Einsteins famous theory had no "proof" (some additional years later it was proven not to be 100% accurate) until some 10-20 years later? Einstein simply "thought" out his theory. For him that was common sense. Still his theory got a huge impact on science. What if Einstein expressed him self in terms of, I think that maybe matter can't move faster then the speed of light, cause maybe the time unit isn't fixed. Do you think ppl would taken him seriously? A scientist needs to be passionate about his theories to get the scientific community's eyes on them.
This is where your expectations grow to high, you expect me to have the same amount of well documented data as most science. This simply won't happen when we are talking about a MMORPG game.
Now you have provided data that shows that my statement might be wrong. Fine. I can change my statement/theory to: Most bounties above 50m are fake, except the top 10(?) bounties in eve.
This is called adding an ad hoc solution to my theory. In some cases these are the ones that makes science evolve. However to many ad hoc solutions degenerate the fundamental theory. And if to many a scientist can not but to reject his original theory.
Yeah my theory is still: Most bounties over 50mill are fake.
I still don't think anyone to actually believe I'm a master mind and take my first post statement as a law that cannot be broken. By common sense everyone reading that should understand its my theory. I don't have to go about making that clear to everyone.
I and everyone else see things, assume things and conclude things without scientific data and express ourselves in terms of "He is always late for work", "they always play this song on the club" "At 12 o clock the church bell will ring" in every day life. In fact that clock might not ring at 12 o clock cause Quasimodo got sick. So by your way of viewing everyday talk and expressions one should say. "The church clock might ring at 12 o clock because it does most days however it might if something happened to Quasimodo".
I don't in every day life and I shouldn't have to on a forum about an online game either. For me a forum is a place where ppl can talk about whatever and express themselves however they like not a scientific community where we must express ourselves scientifically correct.
The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie) |
General Coochie
The Bastards
|
Posted - 2008.02.11 11:02:00 -
[9]
Edited by: General Coochie on 11/02/2008 11:03:33
Quote:
Did you fail to realize that this was an example drawn to its extreme or did you simply ignore it making it sound like IĈm actually considering it to devalue the argument?
The example has the same principles as your actions: Accusations without obligation to back it up, but drawn to the extreme.
You seem to think that method is fine. Which would mean that I too can make accusations (loggoffski, fake bounty and dreadful jokes) about you without having to back it up (E.g. ôNor do I have an obligation to prove that my method is "tight". I'm free to be judgmental. And I can be judgmental about what ever I like.ö), right?
I am free to be judgmental about whatever I like. However my morals tell me what is ok and not.
You can't take a moral argument and take it to the extreme to prove something. Because morals are a personal value between extremes.
I draw the line where I said I did. Also it seems its only bellum so far that might have taken it a bit offending and maybe you. No one else seems to have reacted to it, so I think I drawn the line perfectly fine. I can live with upsetting a few sensitive egos.
If you think its ok to draw a moral to its extreme to prove something, make such a post. But you wont nor will I. Why? Because there is a significant moral difference in making such a post and making the statement I did.
The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie) |
General Coochie
The Bastards
|
Posted - 2008.02.11 20:57:00 -
[10]
Edited by: General Coochie on 11/02/2008 21:01:14
Edited by: General Coochie on 11/02/2008 20:58:00
Plz define what proof is needed. No natural science or theory can EVER be proved unless its a mathematical one (and even some mathematical theories cannot be proven). It can just be regarded as a high probability not to be wrong. You don't seem to understand basic scientific procedure and Philosophy of science and what science really is.
All proof in natural science is based on personal experiences (repeated observations under similar conditions) so how can you disregard mine?
That is why you don't understand what I'm talking about.
I'm sorry but it isn't my ability to discuss thats the problem, its your lack of knowledge about how science work.
You seem to think that science is something fundamental and that a theory actually can be proven? A theory is accepted once it has been tested for a long time because common sense tells us the theory is of use to us. A theory doesn't have to be right either, as long as it serves science and humanity in a good way in can be accepted but NEVER regarded as the fundamental truth.
However a scientist can still express what he believes in terms of. "Matter cannot travel faster then light" He doesn't have to every time make clear that you never can be right in science and or prove something. Everyone in the scientific community knows that it works this way.
You totally disregard everything I said about my proof. You also haven't addressed my point about this being a public forum where language is closer to everyday chat and not scientific correct statements.
Are you actually saying in every day life when someone asks about the train time "The train arrives at 7 because it usually does, however it might not arrive for various reasons its just my theory". No you don't you say "The train arrives at 7". and the person asking doesn't ask for proof.. In the very same way I declare my statement.
You might consider eve forums to be some scientific network of "truth" but I think you are not among the majority if you do.
And you might give up your crusade for proof now but fact is: You haven't proved or disproved anything. My statement stands and as far as I know I'm right.
The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie) |
General Coochie
The Bastards
|
Posted - 2008.02.13 13:41:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Forando
Edited by: Forando on 13/02/2008 11:35:26
Oi! Oi! Girls! Please don't fight. Can't we all just get along, on the forum? And if you have to fight, do so with pillows and bras!
(these forums kinda lack a way to ignore users, it could spare one a lot of pointless scrolling, if you ask me!)
Sorry for cluttering up the thread. Felt I needed to defend myself. It was no fight just a discussion, well atleast until Fina resorted to personal attacks.
The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie) |
General Coochie
The Bastards
|
Posted - 2008.02.14 11:23:00 -
[12]
Edited by: General Coochie on 14/02/2008 11:27:06
Originally by: Cpt Fina
For your own sake, please don't discuss anything of any importance IRL, you'd get laughed at.
From personal experience I can tell you that that isn't the case. Off course you totally disregard personal experiences so I realize saying so doesn't make much difference.
Since this now has turned into something quite different then a discussion I feel we can just leave it at, we having very different opinions about how one should act on a forum, express themselves and whats needed in terms of proof and to make a statement as I did (note: not what proof is needed to make the statement true scientificly)
(I also did warn you about starting a discussion on the forums considering metaphysics and what proof is. You could have said "no I don't wanna do that" and we wouldn't have come to this in the first place. Cause obviously one can have very different philosophical stand points, and arguing against someone with a different one usually doesn't yield anything, if open minded maybe an understanding of what the other person is talking about, but you can never expect the other person to convert to your beliefs)
The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie) |
General Coochie
The Bastards
|
Posted - 2008.02.15 13:38:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Cpt Fina
Originally by: General Coochie
we having very different opinions about how one should act on a forum, express themselves and whats needed in terms of proof and to make a statement as I did (note: not what proof is needed to make the statement true scientificly)
I assumed that you understood why the usual rules of argumentation should be followed. My bad.
What are the usual rules of argumentation then? Care to enlighten me?
If I got it all right this is basicly our discussion:
* You are arguing I made a statement that was an accusation towards someone without any proof.
* I am arguing that I had sufficient proof to make such statement. I'm also a bit skeptical calling my statement an accusation.
The discussion should come down to what sufficient proof is. We clearly have different opinions on the matter. Sufficient proof: This discussion has been going on within the scientific community and the philosophical one for hundreds of years. What makes you think you are obliged to say what sufficient proof is? You can have an opinion of course and you are welcome to argue for it. But you should respect other ppls opinions as well.
The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie) |
General Coochie
The Bastards
|
Posted - 2008.02.15 18:59:00 -
[14]
The argument isn't disproved by you supplementing documented facts of the top player bounties in eve. I can as I said ad an ad hoc solution; It doesn't apply to that high bounties. Maybe because players with that high bounties aren't fake as no one would put that much isk into their own bounty.
However your arguements are good. And it makes my statement/arguements much weaker. It would be better if more ppl joined in on the discussion adding their own experiences. I doubt anyone will join in on this discussion though  Adding an ad hoc solution would be silly of me when I don't have strong enough data for thinking otherwise (and your data is stronger).
So maybe I was wrong.
It doesn't mean I should edit my first post though, that was what I believed at the time and the data I had at hand at that point made me conclude that. Now more data and other arguements have been supplied making me think that maybe I'm wrong (your experiences are indeed as valuable as my own). Also if someone actually wanna follow our discussion its better not to edit a post.
However I don't think that making a post about bastards using log off tactics is even remotely the same as the statement I did. But I guess thats another question where our opinions differ. If however you are fighting me and my computer crash and the circumstances makes you believe we use log off tactics, I wouldn't blame you for making a post about it. As long as one can say "I was wrong" when proved otherwise its all right
I might have been wrong. And if someone would ask me now, maybe I would say that personally I am inclined to think most are fake based on experiences in eve, however other players think they are not. But probably Id say "I'm not sure" cause it is indeed closer to how you express yourself in every day life.
Note I say might have been wrong. As I'm naturally always more inclined to believe my own observations above anyone else's (unless there are more then a few ppl disagreeing with me and I'm alone of my opinion). Would I be totally objective on the matter, like someone reading this post without any experiences of their own on the matter, I would probably consider myself being wrong.
The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie) |
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